Green Border | Agnieszka Holland

Interview with Agnieszka Holland

Pamela Jahn (PJ): Ms. Holland, you haven't made a film as political as Green Border for a long time. Why not?
Agnieszka Holland (AH): It's true, I put politics aside for a few years, but now it's time for me to get involved again. I have the feeling that I have to do something.
PJ: What has changed?
AH: For quite some time there was no reason to be active – politics was boring. The idea of a liberal democracy brought progress. Of course, there were some problems, but nothing I really had to deal with. I didn't feel responsible. My job was to go to the polls every four years and cast my vote – for both countries, Poland and France, because I have dual citizenship.
PJ: The Polish government's immediate response to your film was shocking. Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro compared the film to «Nazi propaganda».
AH: I'm glad that you were shocked, because the worst thing was that people in Poland were not aware of it.
PJ: How did it make you feel?
AH: My first thought was: what the fuck? Of course, the government's reaction was predictable. I knew it would be tough, but I didn't expect them to equate me with Goebbels. My lawyers immediately took appropriate steps. We filed a defamation suit against Ziobro, because for me personally, with my biography, with my past as the granddaughter of victims of the Holocaust, the accusations couldn't be further from the truth.

I believed in the power of imagination. The film was made in a rush.

PJ: Were you ever afraid that the anti-propaganda against you could have escalated?
AH: That could have been the case. Ziobro was, and still is, a very important statesman, and when he says something like that, threats are inevitable. It's not just about insulting me, but also about hate speech that can lead to real violence. But there's no point in going crazy about it. Let's wait and see.
PJ: Does the fact that you are in the public eye as President of the European Film Academy give you some protection?
AH: No, I don't think so. If they have it in for me, they'll find ways and means to get me out of the way.
PJ: How important was it for you to tell this story? Even against the backdrop of the war that is currently raging in Ukraine.
AH: If you look at it from a political point of view, the refugees from Ukraine are also being used by Putin as a kind of pawn to expose the weaknesses in the European Union, and it's not the first time this has happened but what interests me more is our reaction to this. Once we really open our eyes, it is quite clear that the refugee crisis is not something that will simply pass. The number of people who can no longer live in their home countries, who are looking for a better, safer world, will grow, and we obviously don't know how to deal with this, but if the only answer is violence and destruction, then the future looks very bleak for us all. 
PJ: You approach the subject from different perspectives in the film. Was the point of view of the border soldiers the most difficult to portray?
AH: I believed in the power of imagination. The film was made in a rush. In September 2021, I thought about the fact that I had to do something, that I could no longer just watch what was happening at the border, so I contacted two screenwriters, Maciej Pisuk and Gabriela Łazarkiewicz-Sieczko, both of whom are also politically engaged. We immediately started the preliminary research. It was relatively easy because there was a lot of material. I know some of the activists personally so I interviewed them. They also gave me access to footage of refugees. I met others in person, but the border guards were impossible to reach, despite the fact that my daughter directed one of the most popular Polish series for HBO, which was about the border guards in south-eastern Poland. I even tried to use her channels, but that didn't work either. 
PJ: What did you use as a guide then?
AH: We knew from the journalists in the region, for example, that there had been several suicides. We knew that the soldiers were drinking like crazy, that the sale of alcohol had increased enormously, and when we had almost finished the script, I was suddenly contacted separately by three border soldiers. Two of them were still active in the army, the third was already retired. They simply confirmed our suspicions. Almost everything was right, which means that sometimes it's not so much about the research. It's more important to be connected to reality, and to use your psychological imagination.

I am really glad that I am a filmmaker and not a politician. I had full control over my work at all times during production, unlike the politicians who have no idea what's going on in Europe.

PJ: What touched you most personally while working on the film?
AH: The reactions of the people directly involved in the conflict. A few days ago, I met one of the main activists who had read our script, but we had never met in person. She told me that she had tried to find mistakes or inconsistencies in the movie, but she hadn't noticed anything. That took a big load off my mind, because that's what it was all about from the start.
PJ: What were the biggest challenges during filming?
AH: It was actually quite simple. We didn't have much money. The crew was small but very dedicated. Everyone accepted to receive only a small salary, some people even worked for free. We had two sets and shot in parallel. I am really glad that I am a filmmaker and not a politician. I had full control over my work at all times during production, unlike the politicians who have no idea what's going on in Europe.
PJ: After the premiere of the film, you appealed to the European Union to make a decision now, partly because pressure from the right is increasing. Do you have the feeling that it is already too late?
AH: I think so. When the crisis broke out in 2014, the European Union backed down too quickly. This gave the populist and fascist movements the opportunity to immediately exploit the general fear about the enormous number of refugees – two million, three million – for their own purposes. They wanted to prove that Europe was sinking, losing its identity, that the European idea based on solidarity and internationalism was no longer viable – and it worked. They were not only successful in Hungary, Poland and Italy; to a certain extent, they were also able to gain a foothold in France, Spain and Germany. Since then, the EU has been pretending that the problem does not exist. The solutions they offer are ridiculous.
PJ: You also said that the cinema is not completely powerless. What exactly do you mean by that?
AH: We can create a reality that shows more than the reality we see. We can reach people more easily with our images. And yes, we can give a voice to people who otherwise have no opportunity to go public but, of course, I also know that our influence is limited. I'm not naive.

I don't think it's our job to fight the big political battles, but we are now in a situation where I personally see no other choice but to become active. 

PJ: Has your motivation for filmmaking changed over the course of your career?
AH: No. I have always felt it was right and important to be politically active in my own way. As a filmmaker or artist, I have the right and the opportunity to pursue my own agenda. I don't think it's our job to fight the big political battles, but we are now in a situation where I personally see no other choice but to become active.
PJ: Does that mean you will continue to deal with this issue?
AH: My next film will be about Franz Kafka. As I said, I've also really enjoyed the last few decades in which I didn't have to deal directly with political events as a filmmaker, but since 2014 I have the impression that European cinema, independent cinema, is no longer relevant to the real problems that exist. It's talented, it's sensitive, it talks about childhood, about traumas and personal crises, which are of course also very important, but that's not enough.
PJ: What makes Kafka an interesting figure for you in this context?
AH: Kafka has been my soulmate since I was 15. He is like a brother to me, someone who has always influenced me a lot through his writing, and I think many of his works and ideas are more relevant today than ever.
PJ: What is your strategy for the theatrical release of Green Border around the globe?
AH: There is no particular strategy. We want to show the movie, that's what it's all about. We are working with normal commercial distributors who are well aware that this is a very controversial topic, and that can always go both ways in cinema.
PJ: What will happen next for you personally?
AH: Admittedly, I don't know the extent of the potential problems. In any case, I'll probably be dealing with different court cases. But don't worry, I won't let it get me down. I won't give up that easily. That's for sure.

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In the meanwhile, Agnieszka Holland has won her libel suit against Ziobro [Ed.].